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Update: We have applied for a merchant account with BitPay which seems to have everything we need (apart from support for Monero but most other crypto is supported)
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Enable anonymous payments ala Bitcoin/Monero
Anything about cash payments?
Vlad This probably means it will make it not so useful for anonymity.
Because you won't own your wallet, and regulations apply. Even if the regulations are alright now (I haven't looked at them and I don't own any crypto asset), they change all the time, especially after all the current crackdown on bad actors.
I still think it's worth to explore digital store. Even if there's a 15% commission, it will either bring you more business and you're then earning more (until the point it gets worth it to setup your own crypro wallet/nodes), or it doesn't bring more business, so you won't lose much money, but still win loyal customers and good PR.
I still think the other good/better alternative is to sell physical vouchers. Then payment method matters much less and probably easier to handle than cash.
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Vlad Cash-by-mail. Usually you indicate how much you want to send in advance, you get an invoice with a postal address and identifier, and then you just put cash in an enveloppe with the identifier. Be good to have at least one address in the US and one somewhere in Europe (which should be do-able if you have some devs based in the EU, as you'd just need a PO Box close-by).
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Vlad I would recommend against using BitPay. There are a number of reasons why, the biggest one of which being that they require identification of the user's real-life identity during payment. I'd rather just pay via Stripe then, and it doesn't even solve the issue at hand which is the lack of an anonymous payment method. It really just moves the user's trust from one company to another.
I support the ideas of vouchers and cash by mail which have been mentioned here. Using something like Paysafecard may be easier to implement and is in my opinion also a good idea. Aside from these I suggest using a cryptocurrency payment method which doesn't require identification or even sign-up through their service to purchase something, although I don't have any specific recommendations.
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Vlad If you're okay with having to manually convert the payments back to fiat, I'd recommend using a self-hosted solution like BTCPay because it's absolutely best for privacy. Remember that cryptocurrency is decentralized, so you don't actually need a middle-man to process your payments, although it might a bit be harder to setup than the hosted ones.
Now, I don't actually know that much about the different hosted cryptocurrency payment providers (so take this with a grain of salt), but it doesn't really seem like the community endorses Coinbase. Looking at Bitcoin, I did find a community-made list called Awesome Bitcoin payment processors which covers both hosted and self-hosted. Monero has on their own site a list of payment processors if you want to support that as well. I can't really say anything about the individual payment processors though because I don't have any experience with them - if anyone here is more knowledgeable, please come with your own recommendations.
If you're going with a hosted solution, I'd recommend just checking if they require the user to identify themselves, sign up, or create a wallet through their service before paying, because in that case I'd absolutely not recommend it. Otherwise, I think it's probably good, but check what the community has to say about it first (your search engine's "Forums" lens is great for this)
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Reimar Thanks for the extensive feedback.
We (Kagi) are and want to be in the business of search, not in the business of managing crypto (which seems to be non-trivial). This is why a hosted solution is desireable as we ideally do not want to touch crypto in the flow (ideally have it settled in USD and transferred to our USD bank account). From what you say it seems that hosted solutions are not 'liked' by the community which brings us back to square one.
I checked BTCPay but it seems we would need to get in the business of managing our crypto wallets (for each crypto we want to accept) and also settling crypto to USD daily somehow(?), then transfering to our bank account every day. This sounds non-trivial and is less than ideal as we have no experience in crypto whatsoever.
From the list you provided I found nowpayments.io which seem to check all boxes and they should have USD settlement in September.
Vlad I completely understand that you want to focus on search instead of the rather advanced technologies that make up cryptocurrencies. The (privacy-oriented part of) the crypto-community will of course always think more idealistically than practically about how you should use cryptocurrency, so it's hard to live up to their standards. I couldn't immediately find anything wrong about Nowpayments so it's probably a good choice. Thanks for listening to our feedback.
If crypto is out (or almost), can we then consider cash? It remains the most private, as well as a very easy option. Maybe vouchers, I'm not familiar with that.
I've asked around and most people point to Coinbase - any reason why not to consider this as a payment processor for crypto?
Not sure whether that last one was for me. I personally do not trust crypto and would not touch it with a ten-foot pole. From the comments, seems like I'm not the only one. Cash is the way.
Vlad Look at the title of the thread there is "anonymous" in it.
This is not just about cryptocurrency as a checkbox exercise, but cryptocurrency as this is something you can use to pay anonymously.
"Bitcoin" is actually probably the less interesting, as all transactions are publicly available.
Moreoever Coinbase has KYC requirements which goes directly against the "anonymous" requirements, and seems in conflict with the SEC in the US.
This is mildly confusing. Would love if others would jump in with what is really needed to implement on our end.
I would also like to pay privately for privacy-oriented services. For me, that mean payment with Monero or cash. I have stopped using services and stores that try to force me to pay by credit card. Coinbase, BitPay and co offer simple solutions but are not privacy friendly in doubt and work with pigs like CipherTrace.
People (including many in the "crypto space") often fail to distinguish between sender privacy and receiver privacy - and that both sides can legitimately have different requirements.
Kagi, as the Receiver of crypto payments, is a regulated, tax paying entity and it certainly doesn't want to "hide" the fact that they received income via crypto rails. In fact, it is more than likely that they just want to convert into USD asap, in the most cheap and least-bookkeeping hassle way.
It is thus perfectly legit to use a payment processor - which Kagi will have to KYC themselves (but not the user!!) with.
The Users, as the Sender of payments, on the other hand want to "hide" that they spent their coins to Recevier Kagi.
It is thus up to the User to select a crypotocurrency for payment that is inherent "private" such as Monero or, in the case of public blockchain such as Bitcoin, don't pay with with utxos that are associated to their real-life identity. But again, this the job of the user - not the merchant (Kagi)! They should make sure their personal privacy requirements are met, and that they are not shooting themselves in the foot. This is what's ruihildt is confusing imho.
What to choose now?
Assuming Kagi's requirements are:
- accept Bitcoin and Monero as the most asked-for coins
- not hiding this income, and thus be totally fine with KYC-ing themselves (Kagi) with a third-party
- easy integration and reporting (e.g. for bookkeeping)
- convert cryto into fiat (USD)
I would recommend Coinpayments.net as the payment processor . Why?
- They support Bitcoin and Monero. which should make everyone on this thread happy
- They also support Bitcoin Lightning payments (as opposed to Coinbase), which is a novel instant-transfer mechanism of Bitcoin that has much lower fees and much better privacy for the sender. This is a huge draw for the Bitcoin portion of the users (certainly me). While to Kagi,it doesnt make much of a difference (since they receive everything into their custodial Coinpayments walllet anyway), but it would make additional users happy (= moar customers)
- The user does not have to reveal their identity to the payment processor. They just pay the invoice to CP anonymously, and CP communicates back to the merchant "Payment success"
- They take a pretty low transaction processing fee of 0.5%. - vs 1% at Coinbase.
- They support crypto-to-crypto swaps inside their wallet. This is useful for Kagi when they want to consolidate prior to cash out, as they do not have to cash out ten different balances individually. If you fear the exchange rate fluctuation, you could also swap periodically into USDT (Tether) stablecoin.
- Good merchant tools (API, payment button, shopping cart etc) https://www.coinpayments.net/merchant-tools
NOTE: it does not directly support conversion into USD. For that you would need an additional account at an exchange. I would recommend one that supports BTC Lightning (LN), such as Kraken.com or Bitfinex (not Coinbase) but you are free to choose. If you perfer to convert your balance into stablecoins, then you may not care too much.