44

I've been a very happy Kagi user since an early stage.

However, I actively boycott companies that decide to keep economic ties with Russia as a moral obligation, considering I don't want to contribute in any sense to Russian irredentism and wars of aggression.

That is why I was very disappointed to see that Kagi now uses Yandex based services. This is unfortunately very much unnaceptable and I reckon that some of my fellow European neighbors are also strongly opinionated against using Russian-based services.

I don't want to boycot Kagi as I believe in this product. Please, reconsider this decision.

Image search quality was good enough to justify not using Russian-based services.

  • popsicle4478 replied to this.

    • Vlad

    • Best Answerset by Vlad

    The job of a search engine is to produce most relevant search results. Kagi excels at this. Any good search engine remains unimpressed by world politics.

    Few interesting details how Kagi works in the background:

    • we do not call all sources for all queries, as we are (selfishly) interested in reducing our own costs, while not reducing the quality of results. it is a delicate game to be played
    • kagi makes more money the less it costs us to produce the results
    • kagi has been using yandex search api since 2019. including yandex makes kagi results better. yandex is about 2% of our total cost, to put things into perspective and is only one of dozens sources we use to make search better and ensure if you can not find something in Kagi, you can not find it anywhere
    • if you look at our changelog over the last year or so you will see many new sources added, while your price as a user remained the same - meaning Kagi just keeps adding more value and makes search better
    • we are really obsessing about having best search in the world - without delviering on that promise and constantly being much better than competition, nobody would be paying for Kagi
    • we have a discussion started on showing sources and potentially allowing users to disable certain ones https://kagifeedback.org/d/252-show-source-of-results and https://kagifeedback.org/d/4727-option-to-choose-or-exclude-specific-external-indexes what makes it difficult to act on this is that kagi does not save searches as a matter of policy and including more moving parts would make debugging search quality issues next to impossible
    • there is very complex system behind deciding what gets pulled in for each query etc
    • we use something like up to 40 sources including our own indexes at this point for each query. all of that is included in your subscription and happens in split second and guarantees that if you can not find something on kagi, you can not find it anywhere.
    • Kagi users expect the very best search results in the world and they are very vocal about it when that is not the case. See https://kagifeedback.org/t/search-quality
    • any search source we consider using goes through rigorous evaluation process that considers: result quality, API availability, economic viability, result latency, legal terms, privacy terms, and technical feasibility. the moment 'politics' is a part of factors being considered for search results, is the moment I stop working on a search engine.
    • that does not mean that I am personally not interested in politics (I was a refugee of two wars, so yes it affected me greatly) but I keep a position that any good search engine has to remain impartial and unimpressed by world politics. world does not need yet another politicized search engine, and kagi won't become one.
    • also check our policy on search being search and nothing else https://help.kagi.com/kagi/search-details/search-quality.html#search-neutrality-and-information-access

    For any further questions or concerns feel free to reach out to vlad@kagi.com

    We set out to fix search, not the world. Thank you for your support.

    Honestly, seeing that OP has started a crusade against Kagi on Reddit and probably other places, I suspect this is mostly some kind of power tripping from an individual who can't take a no. If you care about the Ukraine in the way you say you do, their recruitment offices are open 24 hours per day. That's where your effort brings most results, not by cry-bullying a small search company that tries their best to weigh ethical concerns while offering the best product in its class.

    Edit: I also think it's sad that so many activists in the Kagi community choose not to make constructive suggestions. It should be: "If Kagi did this, then I think you could get more and happier customers", but instead it is: "If Kagi doesn't do as I say, I will cancel my subscription and start a boycott".

      Using Yandex is problematic because it operates under significant Russian state influence and has been accused of manipulating search results to align with Kremlin propaganda, particularly regarding the war in Ukraine. The company has been criticized for censoring war-related content and promoting state-approved narratives, leading the EU to sanction former CEO Arkady Volozh. Additionally, using Yandex services could potentially expose user data to Russian authorities, raising privacy and security concerns for EU citizens. The European Parliament has specifically warned about the risks of Russian disinformation through platforms like Yandex, making it an unreliable source for objective information, especially concerning geopolitical issues.
      By sending money to Yandex, Kagi supports that, and the fact that they ignore the problem should raise a lot of questions regarding the views of the current geopolitical situation of Kagi stakeholders.

      Do we know if the queries that use Yandex are anonymized or something, so that Yandex can't get any info of me?

        carl You’re thinking of me, I think, but I’m not OP. I guess other people have problems with a company they admire and support financially doing business with Yandex and Russia.

        Once again you argue that things are only black and white. “If you’re not serving on the front, nothing you do helps support Ukraine or its cause.” But this is not true, just as it is not true that Kagi has a moral pass to do business with a company funded and influenced by a terrorist state because “money gets there anyway in a global economy.” It’s very similar to the argument “companies will get my data anyway, so why not just use Google/Facebook/[insert other company here].”

        This is a question of principles, and we, as Kagi supporters and customers, are hoping Kagi can align its principles with what’s right in this case, with what’s objectively morally right — vehemently and categorically against unprovoked violence and terror against the “humans” behind their “human internet.” Even without that, Kagi should find issue with working with Yandex who has consistently modified and skewed results and information according to the Kremlin’s whims. That isn’t a “free, human internet” either.

        Edit: Granted, Google has also censored results in an attempt to combat bad/fake information to various levels of success. I don’t think equating the two is fair, though.

            miicat_47 All of your queries are anonymized by Kagi before being forwarded to their various search providers. You don’t need to worry about a profile being built on you specifically by Yandex or any other search provider when using Kagi.

            We are, though, providing Yandex and Russia data about the kinds of things Kagi users (mostly Americans and Europeans I’m guessing) search for, which might be worth something to them.

                Indeed, Yandex is fully operated by Russian entities, on Russian ground, governed by Russian laws. I find it highly problematic as well

                I already cancelled my subscription due to this, as I told the support team.

                This is not about censorship. I do not want to silence Russian voices. I do not want to keep Russian content out of my search results. I do not want to see any bangs related to Yandex or other Russian sources removed. I do not wish to demonize the Russian People.

                I simply do not want my money going to a Russian megacorp to support the Russian war machine.

                I'm an American. To get ahead of trollbot whataboutism that is rampant everywhere else: Yes, the USA has committed and continues to commit international atrocities. My government is actively supporting Israel's genocide of the Palestinian people. That is bad. I am doing what I can as an individual to stop that. But I cannot simply opt out of paying 25% of my income to my government. If you actually care about that, I would encourage you to stop supporting American businesses, including Kagi. If you don't, then don't bring it up.

                nologic

                carl

                Edit: I also think it's sad that so many activists in the Kagi community choose not to make constructive suggestions. It should be: "If Kagi did this, then I think you could get more and happier customers", but instead it is: "If Kagi doesn't do as I say, I will cancel my subscription and start a boycott".

                Huh?? My complaint is simply that my money is being funneled to Russian corporations. Do you have any constructive suggestions as to how I can avoid that?

                      popsicle4478 Probably going off-grid and raising chickens if you want to guarantee that none of your hard earned dollars ever get into any Russian pockets. I won't mention other nations, since you've already determined that such is whataboutism from trollbots (why would a bot be interested in trolling, isn't that a human endeavour?).

                      I think it's perfectly fine that people who deem it unacceptable that Kagi uses Yandex go ahead and cancel their subscriptions. The same thing if they don't accept Kagi sourcing from Brave, Google or Apple. Each person makes her decision. Even better: Make a Yandex-free search engine to compete with Kagi.

                      In the growing phase, every small business will attract activists who want to form the company to their will, without investing anything or creating something themselves. That's normal, I consider it growing pains. It's totally risk-free and effort free for the activists. They see small companies as easy targets to be bullied. When/if the company grows to a bigger size, activists won't be interested anymore, because they know big companies don't listen.

                          carl

                          there's a middle ground between living in the woods and not caring at all about where your money goes. Most people just want to make reasonable ethical choices.
                          The whole "build your own search engine" argument doesn't really hold up. Customers who pay for a service should be able to give feedback

                          Calling concerned users "activists" trying to "bully" small companies feels like a stretch.

                            When "concerned users" coordinate a boycott of Kagi through Reddit in forums that have nothing to do with Kagi or with search engines, then they are activists. Not if they are voicing their opinion here.

                            If I go to your restaurant and am not satisfied with what you offer, then I'm a concerned customer. If I go on national media to urge everybody to boycott your restaurant, then I'm an activist.

                            There's over 30 000 people paying for Kagi. Not everybody can demand that Kagi does exactly what they personally want, because there's also 30 000 other people to consider. We have to vote with our wallets. I choose not to buy products from a ton of businesses, because I don't like what they do ethically or business-wise. To me paying for Kagi is easily a good ethical choice.

                            HamSesh This is a question of principles, and we, as Kagi supporters and customers, are hoping Kagi can align its principles with what’s right in this case, with what’s objectively morally right — vehemently and categorically against unprovoked violence and terror against the “humans” behind their “human internet.”

                            You are not speaking for more people than yourself, so "We as Kagi supporters" is not the right expression. I don't speak for anybody but myself either. It seems like you feel that you can "do your part" of the fight by inflicting damage on a small company like Kagi. Glad that you've found a target that you're comfortable to attack. But know that behaviour like yours is also the reason why most companies chose to never communicate with users and the community around their product. In the end, who wins?

                                carl You said it yourself, "We have to vote with our wallets." And yet when somebody suggests voting with their wallet, you call that bullying? Make up your mind dude.

                                    • Vlad

                                    • Post #19
                                    • Edited
                                    • Best Answerset by Vlad

                                    The job of a search engine is to produce most relevant search results. Kagi excels at this. Any good search engine remains unimpressed by world politics.

                                    Few interesting details how Kagi works in the background:

                                    • we do not call all sources for all queries, as we are (selfishly) interested in reducing our own costs, while not reducing the quality of results. it is a delicate game to be played
                                    • kagi makes more money the less it costs us to produce the results
                                    • kagi has been using yandex search api since 2019. including yandex makes kagi results better. yandex is about 2% of our total cost, to put things into perspective and is only one of dozens sources we use to make search better and ensure if you can not find something in Kagi, you can not find it anywhere
                                    • if you look at our changelog over the last year or so you will see many new sources added, while your price as a user remained the same - meaning Kagi just keeps adding more value and makes search better
                                    • we are really obsessing about having best search in the world - without delviering on that promise and constantly being much better than competition, nobody would be paying for Kagi
                                    • we have a discussion started on showing sources and potentially allowing users to disable certain ones https://kagifeedback.org/d/252-show-source-of-results and https://kagifeedback.org/d/4727-option-to-choose-or-exclude-specific-external-indexes what makes it difficult to act on this is that kagi does not save searches as a matter of policy and including more moving parts would make debugging search quality issues next to impossible
                                    • there is very complex system behind deciding what gets pulled in for each query etc
                                    • we use something like up to 40 sources including our own indexes at this point for each query. all of that is included in your subscription and happens in split second and guarantees that if you can not find something on kagi, you can not find it anywhere.
                                    • Kagi users expect the very best search results in the world and they are very vocal about it when that is not the case. See https://kagifeedback.org/t/search-quality
                                    • any search source we consider using goes through rigorous evaluation process that considers: result quality, API availability, economic viability, result latency, legal terms, privacy terms, and technical feasibility. the moment 'politics' is a part of factors being considered for search results, is the moment I stop working on a search engine.
                                    • that does not mean that I am personally not interested in politics (I was a refugee of two wars, so yes it affected me greatly) but I keep a position that any good search engine has to remain impartial and unimpressed by world politics. world does not need yet another politicized search engine, and kagi won't become one.
                                    • also check our policy on search being search and nothing else https://help.kagi.com/kagi/search-details/search-quality.html#search-neutrality-and-information-access

                                    For any further questions or concerns feel free to reach out to vlad@kagi.com

                                    We set out to fix search, not the world. Thank you for your support.

                                    Vlad locked the discussion .