Reconsider your partnership with Brave

ns_hera Including the API for search results in no way forces you into cryptocurrency.

Peter you must eliminate all API sources because other sources are just as bad.

They're not "just as bad". There's a difference between tracking people and denying them healthcare, for example, or wanting them dead.

I can sympathize with the feeling of "well, every option is terrible, why should we even try", believe me. But there are distinctions.

It's Kagi's duty as a company to create their own moral compass, communicate it, and stand by it. If your compass says "our users' privacy is important, but we don't care one bit about gay rights", that's okay. It's a valid position to have. It's equally valid for some of your potential users however to then say "wow, what a horrible thing to say" and take their business elsewhere.

What Kagi is trying, however, is to say "our users' privacy is important, but we have no opinion on whether gay people should be allowed to marry or not". And that just doesn't work if it's a topic that people care about.

carl once these kind of groups set their teeth into an organisation, they never let go, until there's just bones left

carl dealing Mr Eich the same way as suspected political enemies were dealt with during the Stalin era of the Soviet Union

carl, I would appreciate if you could dial down the conspiracy theories and McCarthyism a bit.

carl I see threatening language against Kagi repeatedly used in this thread.

I didn't. Please show me a few examples. Note that "I'm leaving" isn't a threat. "I'm not buying in your store" and "I'm not talking to someone with that kind of opinion" aren't threats either.

carl he's just a convenient target because the activists do not see him as a threat to their life

The exact opposite is true. Brendan Eich is being called out exactly because he is supporting legislation that threatens the life of people.

carl Kagi paying someone who then uses that money to finance campaigns against minorities...

I've seen no evidence for that.

It's really not that hard to see. Kagi is paying for Brave's API. Brave is paying Eich. And Eich is donating to campaigns such as Prop8, which is why we're in this situation in the first place.

carl Here is something Mr Eich wrote:
https://brendaneich.com/2014/03/inclusiveness-at-mozilla/

Since that didn't please the activists

Because it doesn't solve the main issue: Brendan Eich supporting anti-queer legislation. When I read this post, I see a lot of "at Mozilla, I will X", "Mozilla has always been X", and "Mozilla will continue to X". Where is "I, as a person, have reconsidered my views"? Where is "I have decided to donate amount X to gay rights charity Y"? Well, it's not there, because Brendan Eich's views have not changed, and he's trying to weasel himself out of admitting that. People saw right through this.

And before you ask: Yes, it's totally his right to oppose gay marriage. However, it's also the right of gay marriage proponents to oppose Brendan Eich in return. Freedom of speech works both ways.

Dustin I think this is incredibly unfair, unreasonable and frankly a ridiculous mischaracterization of the issue.

And I think it's an excellent example of privilege in action. For some of you, the whole issue is about whether Brave provides good technology or not. But for others, who are thinking a few steps ahead, it is about protecting their freedom, their physical safety, and ultimately, their life.

In a country where anti-LGBTQ hate crimes have increased almost 20 percent from 2021 to 2022 alone, curtailing gay rights directly leads to people getting hurt or killed. This article explains it in a single sentence:

The constant stream of hostile rhetoric from fringe anti-equality figures, alongside the relentless passage of discriminatory bills, particularly those targeting transgender individuals, in state legislatures, created an environment where it was sadly foreseeable that individuals with violent tendencies might respond to this rhetoric

Look, it's "okay" if you have never thought about the struggles of queer life. That's part of what "privilege" means: You never had to. Good for you. I never really had to either. But I chose to. And when you do that, you realize "huh, giving money to anti-equality campaigns actually hurts people who have done nothing wrong". And at that moment, you have a choice. You can say "well, I'm not gay, so I don't care, I want my search results to be 1 % better". Or you can say "okay no, this is not right, I cannot stand for this".

scy Hysterics aren't helpful, nor is projecting your whims to the entirety of someone else's project.

scy
They're not "just as bad". There's a difference between tracking people and denying them healthcare, for example, or wanting them dead.

You too use the phrase "wanting them dead" (or something similar). Did Brave or Brendan Eich say something like that? Could you please show me the source for that?

And I disagree with your opinion that other API sources are not as bad. I'm almost sure that Yandex's propaganda involvement in the Russian invasion of Ukraine did cost quite a few lives. Can you really say the same about Brave or Brendan Eich?

Peter You too use the phrase "wanting them dead" (or something similar). Did Brave or Brendan Eich say something like that? Could you please show me the source for that?

*points to the rest of the post of which you apparently have only read the first couple of lines*

Sure, Prop8 didn't say "we want the queers to be dead". But it leads to that. People who vote for it, and especially people who donate to it, either know that and want it to happen, or don't care about whether the gays die or not. Both is unacceptable in my opinion.

Peter And I disagree with your opinion that other API sources are not as bad. I'm almost sure that Yandex's propaganda involvement in the Russian invasion of Ukraine did cost quite a few lives. Can you really say the same about Brave or Brendan Eich?

Valid point. I was focusing on the argument that Google is as bad as Eich. To be honest, I didn't even know that Kagi is using Yandex until this moment. Are they paying for this service? I assume they do. In that case, I oppose this as well. Though there's still a difference: While I agree that Yandex is probably being influenced by the Kremlin, does Artyom Savinovsky donate to the military, voluntarily?

Also, I don't agree that "propaganda on Yandex" played a major role when it comes to the number of Ukrainian lives lost.

chris_20017 And they're never appeased. Bully in one thing, then keep pushing until the thing is a broken shadow of what it could've been. You can witness it daily.

scy Sure, Prop8 didn't say "we want the queers to be dead". But it leads to that.

No, it doesn’t. It leads to people from the gay community not being able to marry. That is intolerant, small-minded and begrudging. Unfortunately, it was also the status quo for a long time. Supporting it does not mean supporting or condoning an act of homophobic violence. It simply does not.

scy carl, I would appreciate if you could dial down the conspiracy theories and McCarthyism a bit.

There's no conspiracy. Witch hunts and mobs going after single victims is a constant aspect of humanity. McCarthyism is one of the famous examples! And here you are following the same patterns of persecution. Examples are found everywhere in politics, where usually a ruling party gets destroyed by inner strife once they've taken the route of letting an ideologically fuelled group take power by purging. One example is Mozilla.

I didn't. Please show me a few examples. Note that "I'm leaving" isn't a threat. "I'm not buying in your store" and "I'm not talking to someone with that kind of opinion" aren't threats either.

From the OP: "I refuse to financially support any organization that partners with an organization that tolerates such hate and ignorance."

A bit further down: "...but people are hesitant to finance actors who finance causes that reject their own identity."

And further down: "I'll gladly remove my financial backing of Kagi if they continue to support Brave."

These are meant as threats. Of course anybody can threaten to take their business elsewhere, and then do it. But most take their business elsewhere without public notice, and Kagi can loose many more customers if they don't take this into consideration. If the relationship is that bad already, there is no chance of further improvement. The people threatening Kagi in this thread will not be satisfied with any victory, and remove their support later anyway.

The exact opposite is true. Brendan Eich is being called out exactly because he is supporting legislation that threatens the life of people.

That's not true. He has not wished death on anybody or threatened anybody. You have arguably crossed the line of criminal slander in this thread, that Mr Eich could use in a lawsuit against you as the real individual behind the nick, if he was so inclined. One day you might look back at your words here and go "What the fuck?". It is completely disproportionate what Mr Eich is being the subject to. Some might think that by the virtue of his skin colour or ethnicity, that Mr Eich deserve no mercy and consideration. But he is a human being and has the same protection as anybody else, certainly in a court of law.

However, it's also the right of gay marriage proponents to oppose Brendan Eich in return.

You absolutely have no right to oppose his existence.

Well, it's not there, because Brendan Eich's views have not changed, and he's trying to weasel himself out of admitting that. People saw right through this.

This is what I mean when I write that Mr Eich is the victim of a witch hunt and a hate mob. By not accepting an apology and instead saying that the victim is "trying to weasel", you end all discussion and all civility. You are exhibiting the same kind of behaviour as the Chekist used against alleged spies during Stalin's purge and that the Lutheran priests used against alleged witches. Victims were forced to confess and apologise, even if they hadn't done anything wrong – and were of course killed after that anyway. Because the zeal and hatred made no apology acceptable. At least you are "generously" offering Mr Eich to pay for his forgiveness.

I think people are using this thread to blow off steam and their personal frustration from the holidays, and getting their "two minutes of hate" against a victim that has no way to retaliate. But I might be wrong - hell, maybe even Kagi will soon be the subject of a cyber hate mob, that will slander the company everywhere online because they didn't throw Mr Eich under the bus. That could even be good for the company, depending on how the wind blows.

scy points to the rest of the post of which you apparently have only read the first couple of lines

Oh, I did read your whole post. Maybe I didn't understand it fully.