Non-AI unlimited plan

OnanForumed

Vlad A common misconception is that AI is more expensive than search. Opposite is true - performing a search is 100x-1000x more expensive than doing an interaction with AI.

This is surprising to me, and directly addresses some of my reasoning, which apparently was flawed! But, in light of https://help.kagi.com/kagi/ai/assistant.html#fair-use-policy I wonder if we're talking about the same thing. I'm not exactly sure what's meant by "doing an interaction," (I'm aware that cost can vary quite widely between models and some interactions are more expensive than others!) but it does appear that AI-heavy users can cost enough to warrant a complex special clause in the plan contract, while unlimited search remains simply that: unlimited.

Vlad Bottom line - if you want no-AI plan because you hope to get Kagi cheaper, it is not possible. If we could make Kagi cheaper we would simply do it for all our customers, and not discriminate among them.

That is very conclusive. Thanks! I'm not sure there's more I can add here, since I know you're not interested in metered pricing (and neither would most customers be, most likely). I think the way forward for me is to continue using the expensive classic search rather than the cheap slop generators, and trust that Kagi will rationally prioritize the features that customers actually use.

Also @luked the incentive structure here might explain the relative neglect of search. Worrisome, if true.

luked

OnanForumed

Also @luked the incentive structure here might explain the relative neglect of search. Worrisome, if true.

It's really frustrating how as someone who pays for primarily a search product, at least half of the updates to the Kagi product stack are simply not about search. I don't think I've seen improvements to Teclis once in changelog?

Why is there not a massive investment in developer resourcing in building out and expanding the reach of Teclis to be the primary crawler used by Kagi (especially if search is so expensive)?

OnanForumed

Perplexed by my intuition being upside-down, I needed to know why is search so much more expensive than AI interaction (however quantified). https://help.kagi.com/kagi/search-details/search-sources.html#search-sources has some of the answer:

Our search results also include anonymized API calls to all major search result providers worldwide

Of course! It's not the internal indexes (Teclis and TinyGem) that are expensive, it's paying the competition (all of them all at once!) their bulk rates for a product that Kagi then has to recombine, filter, and repackage. This makes perfect sense but also leaves me feeling more than a little uneasy about the future of Kagi search. Is this really a sustainable business model? I wish the company would focus on beefing up its own indexes and scrapers rather than chasing LLMs. Especially because of the other side of the equation: LLM services are all still priced below cost, being heavily subsidized with investor capital because we're still in the bubble phase; see e.g. https://www.wheresyoured.at/why-everybody-is-losing-money-on-ai/

When the bubble pops and the prices have to reflect the costs, things are going to look different. Kagi can probably afford to run some of the smaller and cheaper models itself at scale, but not the fancy ones. And it certainly can't afford to train them, so we'd still be beholden to the biases and omissions baked into the big models: one major reason I already don't care to use them.

KarolyNegyesi

Gredharm Allies with many guns.

this is the worst kind of 2A rhetoric. The best defense against guns is to create a prosperous environment such that using a gun or many guns is a net negative for the user.

That has nothing to do with the problem at hand though.

And yes I complained about search results before and instead of "yeah we screwed up because it doesn't even search for the words you entered" I got "you are holding it wrong".

Thibaultmol

luked I don't think I've seen improvements to Teclis once in changelog?

Tbf, I don't know if 'Teclis' itself is being updated BUT Kagi's own indexing/crawling efforts are being actively worked on with various people behind the scenes.. it's just .. behind the scenes work to setup the infrastructure and such but none of those things show up on changelogs.

Various people on working on Search, maps (both non ai related things), some things just take time.
Something that was launched recently to Search: https://blog.kagi.com/slopstop

marc-eu

I'm noticing that AI features are added without opting-in for it, like the "Quick Answer" button.

One of the main reasons for using Kagi is that I want a quality search engine that can be used without the AI nonsense.

Please respect users that don't want to use AI. So, don't add AI features without an opt-in.

If Kagi is becoming an AI product, then please let me know, so that I can move on.

For now, please remove the "Quick Answer" button.

tux0r

marc-eu If Kagi is becoming an AI product

Always has been, actually: https://help.kagi.com/kagi/ai/kagi-ai.html

Thibaultmol

Tbc Kagi isn't trying to force ai onto people, I personally think we should have a setting that hides ai features but in the meantime you can do
https://codeberg.org/zerodogg/kagi-no-ai

marc-eu

No? They added an AI related button without users consent ánd without an option to turn it off.

Users now have to ask to be able to remove it.

They could have made it opt-in in the first place, but they decided not to.

fxgn

marc-eu No? They added an AI related button without users consent ánd without an option to turn it off.

The quick answer button was there for at least two years. They moved it around recently and then back to the previous location.

marc-eu

tux0r Always has been, actually: https://help.kagi.com/kagi/ai/kagi-ai.html

Yes I'm aware of that.

What I mean is that if Kagi becomes a product with a high focus on AI and when they neglect and/or subordinate the classic search functionality.

Gredharm

marc-eu That's not realistic. The primary reason Kagi AI is good, is due to search.

Kagi use the same AI providers as everyone else, like Perplexity as a comparable alternative. Kagi doesn't have better AI than Perplexity, but because their search is better, I find their AI gives better results, as it has better source data to work with.

AFAIK there is no place Kagi forces AI on users, but I would agree that in the future they should keep it that way. People can just not click Quick Answer if they don't want to use it.

marc-eu

fxgn The quick answer button was there for at least two years.

Not true. I never saw it before when all available AI options were turned off.

georgee

marc-eu Not true. I never saw it before when all available AI options were turned off.

I’m actually the one who originally added that functionality, and it has been there since 1/17/2023.
Although the button has moved a few times, it has remained in the navigation area for over 2 years.
This isn’t a new feature, and it requires user action in order to trigger.
Anyway, I understand your point. We will review your suggestion and update you accordingly.

fxgn

marc-eu maybe you just didn't notice it, but it was always there. See this blog post from 2023, here's when it was introduced:

https://blog.kagi.com/kagi-ai-search#sumresults

marc-eu

@Dustin
This isn't a "duplicate of Non-AI unlimited plan". This is a whole different point I'm making.

user_7575

What does your feature entail?

I would like if Kagi Assist would be optional when I pay for Kagi. Maybe Kagi Search is available to pay, but Assist is an optional add-on or bundled in a higher tier instead of being bundled with all plans. This is for users like myself who don't like AI¹ and, not only would like to not use Assist, but also don't want to pay extra money for Assist when I have no desire in using it.

Right now, $10 will get you unlimited searches and Assist. Instead of this, maybe the plan could be like $8 for unlimited searches, and if users wanted to, add an additional $2 for Assist.

¹ I know there's genuine use cases for AI and I appreciate Kagi's AI philosophy, but I'm so sick of the technology being awkwardly shoved everywhere. It's why I made this suggestion in the first place.

What are the exact ways that you see a user using your proposed feature?

Again, for users who'd like to distance themselves from AI anything, they get to do that.

They also get to save some money, too. It's not just the initial plans users have to pay for, users may have to also pay taxes and foreign transaction fees, too

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