Kagi Mail: Suggestions Based on My Personal Email Experience

kirkmc

the_real_urusaiyatsu Hey.com also reads your emails in order to provide these features, just like Google. Not that emails aren't readable on most servers, but these services perform actions based on the content of your emails.

the_real_urusaiyatsu

kirkmc Hey.com 'can' read emails but in exceptional circumstances under protocols. Not sure how that is required to surface email based on sender/domain and show files in summary view by sender/thread etc.

kirkmc

[deleted] Good points all. I do understand that some people have pried other features into email, such as sending themselves an email to put something on a to-do list. I think you're wrong in thinking only one person does that.

Email is pretty basic, and should stay that way, IMHO. If you use email for your work, however, that's different. You'll have an email client in your company that does a whole bunch of things, such as adding meetings to calendars, etc. But that's not email; that's a communication and collaboration platform. I think there's a risk in trying to bring enterprise solutions to individual users. They do too much, and are too complicated.

ctoliver94

This thread seems to be split exactly down the middle between A) people suggesting features for a hypothetical mail service and B) people saying they don't want Kagi Mail.

And I'm in camp B- I want a good search engine and that's all. My personal train of thought is that if I need an internet-wide search service I want to use Kagi. When I need to find a new product not my radar (I still want Kagi Shopping lol), or find blogs of a certain niche or something- then I want to use Kagi. Even things like Kagi Maps are fine.

But email? I have that covered by a different company. And that's honestly the way I want it.

I really can't stand how companies like ClickUp advertise themselves as "the only tool you need!" and show it barely functioning in a myriad of different ways. It's frustrating to me. I don't need an every tool. I don't need to get the ""bang for my buck"" I need the tool I signed up for. I'm tired of ecosystems. I'm tired of every platform being every platform. There's serious value in separation.

I'd rather every dollar taken to build a Kagi Mail be put into making Kagi Search better. (Hint hint Kagi Shopping please i'm desperate 😭😭😭)

This is definitely more in the "rant" territory, sorry about that 😅

InternetChunk

Well you can't please everyone. I don't know what Kagi Shopping might be but it doesn't sound like something I'd use but I am open to seeing how Kagi Mail turns out for example.

From my understanding, mail will happen regardless, I'm sure they have a selected team that is better at mail than e.g. search so imo resources aren't really transferred from search onto mail development.

I am a big anti LLM user but I've swallowed the pill that Kagi Assistant will still be developed for other users, that is why perhaps the "don't need it?, don't use it" approach is the best option for this whole conversation.

However, as some before have pointed out, while an interesting idea I had never thought or wanted to search my mail in my search engine or vice versa, I don't think that's a good path forwards for Kagi Mail, out of probably possible scarce Kagi mail users adding weird features that 98% won't ever use could make the whole experience if not make then feel worse even in the GUI clatter aspect. IMO with Mail Kagi should focus on making it stand out from competitors by being if not just as than more private, secure and fast while discussing possible new features with the community.

kirkmc

I wouldn't mind a shopping option. When searching for products, I end up on Google. This said, indexing millions of items and their prices probably isn't that easy.

Does Google get a cut when they send someone to a site via their shopping tab?

Pleonasm

And, some (hopefully helpful) additions to the conversation….

The argument by Kagi for creating an email product appears to be founded on the assumption that customers’ interests will inherently be better served when using an “ecosystem” of search + browser + email products produced by a single company. But, what current evidence exists to support this assumption?

For example, in the case of Microsoft, what meaningful advantages accrue to a user of Bing or Edge or Outlook as a consequence of also using the other products in that ecosystem? I occasionally hear generic comments about the benefits of “a holistic digital experience” and “seamless integration,” but have failed to see specific worthwhile improvements supporting the hypothesis that the “whole is greater than the sum of the parts.”

The same point can also be made about the current Kagi ecosystem consisting of search + browser. Why is Kagi search meaningfully better when used from within Orion? Why is Orion noticeably better when also using Kagi search? While each individual product has benefits, there is no noticeable ecosystem advantage that emerges when using both together, IMHO. As a consequence, the ecosystem justification for building search + browser + email under the Kagi brand seems to be questionable.

Therefore, if the development of Kagi Mail is difficult to justify based on an ecosystem argument, then what else is the raison d'être for the product? Stated differently, “What is the problem Kagi is seeking to solve with a mail product?” And, more generally, it may be strategically worthwhile to ponder: “If Kagi Mail is the answer, then what is the question?”

P.S.: Alternatively, perhaps the argument for creating Kagi Mail is based on realizing the vision of “humanizing the web,” with the “web” defined as having a discovery layer (search) + an access layer (browser) + an identity/communications layer (email). From this perspective, strictly speaking, the goal is not to build an ecosystem. Instead, the goal is to build search, browser, and email products as three separate (and only loosely interconnected) tactics in support of the pursuit of that vision.

DonReba

Having an ecosystem will mean that Kagi would be able to add unpopular features, like AI or whatever the next bubble is going to be, and count on users staying because they have really come to like searching their email from their search engine. Even if Kagi never does this under its current leadership, some private equity fund mind think Vlad is leaving money on the table and go for a leveraged buyout.

Perverse incentives are stronger than good intentions. I am very wary of Kagi building the tools for user lock-in.

tux0r

RossWinn As an aside, the Mac desperately needs a better email client than Apple mail.

MailMate exists.

InternetChunk

tux0r And 300 other mail clients nobody ever heard of.

tux0r

InternetChunk I did my duty.

tux0r

Now, on to the actual topic here:

the_real_urusaiyatsu You seem to be the power user exception - your use case is not the only one, and you're not where the money is, it's the millions of average users who just want to be end users in systems that work.

Honestly, the millions of average users are rather unlikely to pay for Just Another Mail Service, especially as the unique selling point of Kagi's services (no ads, because that's not where the funding is) is already covered by several other mail services that have been in existence for years.

As far as I can see, there are three categories of email service customers:

These average users. They use what they get. Gmail. Outlook. Other "free" email providers. Email isn't their life; email is what they need to be reachable by email, almost a necessary evil. A Kagi email service would offer them no advantages, and they would never even consider paying a single penny for at least some more data protection in emails.
Privacy-conscious average users. They know it's an extraordinarily daft idea to let Google and/or Microsoft rummage through their emails. Perhaps they pay Apple a few quid for the "pro version" of the email address they already have anyway, or maybe Tutanota or Protonmail. But these services have been around for a long time; the market is saturated. Kagi can't offer this group anything they don't already have.
Geeks, nerds, hackers. Kagi could only score points here if it were very decidedly not suitable for the masses. We tend to run our own mail servers, which doesn't even cost much money or effort (these days there are ready-made "off-the-shelf" solutions). I doubt that the effort and reward would be in a healthy relationship here.

One has to ask what the great added value of Kagi Mail is supposed to be. A mail service better integrated into the browser? Vivaldi Mail isn't exactly a huge hit, as far as I know – and Orion is anything but a blockbuster. Emails searchable by AI? For heaven's sake, I don't use GnuPG because I want that to be possible at all. (I assume Google will surely offer something similar soon. And it's a nightmare!)

InternetChunk

tux0r Well nobody said Kagi mail would cost money, it could be like Orion with an optional support “plus” version.

Yes there are other privacy email providers but they all differ in some way, have their flaws and e.g. Proton encourages you to use their ecosystem.

If Kagi wants to implement unique features that enhance productivity - cool, standing out and being useful is very important for product discovery.

Kagi can also differ from others by using an “ecosystem” even if it would be fairly loosely connected.

Pleonasm

tux0r One has to ask what the great added value of Kagi Mail is supposed to be.

I also struggle to comprehend the answer to this crucial question. Imagine that Kagi Mail 1.0 is released in about a year. At that time, what unique benefits might be highlighted in an independent review of the product?

More strategically, I am concerned that larger industry trends in the realm of search will make it more difficult for Kagi to continue to prosper. Search seems to be evolving toward commonization – and, even Kagi’s most important feature of aligning the business model with customers’ interests could be easily matched. For example, Apple, with its strong customer and privacy focus, may create an AI-powered web search tool in 2026 (see here) that reduces the relevance of Kagi.

With these business threats on the horizon, it seems to me (and others may legitimately disagree) that the interests of Kagi would be best severed with an exclusive focus on its search product. The winds of change are a blowin’, and the time period that Kagi has available to build competitive barriers around its core product is brief.

P.S.: Please do not misinterpret my comments as a criticism of Kagi. I am simply trying to raise considerations that may help the company successfully navigate the forthcoming storms.

tux0r

InternetChunk e.g. Proton encourages you to use their ecosystem.

It’s not that Kagi wouldn’t, right?

InternetChunk

tux0r I don’t know do I.
And unless some specific integration features are added I think the products would be loosely interconnected somehow if at all.

For now you can use Kagi with Orion but you absolutely don’t have to and vice versa with search.

But the truth is, the vast majority of internet users prefer to have everything in one place for convenience.

eganonoa

Lots of replies questioning the need for Kagi mail, with plenty of people saying, for instance, that they have and are happy with the likes of Protonmail. While I understand that position, you actually need only look at Proton to understand why it might be needed if you were at Kagi: Proton keeps expanding into new areas. It might be, just to remain competitive in the paid privacy space, they need to have an email offering. One could also look at Duckduckgo and realize that email doesn't have to be narrowly-defined as a traditional email offering.

From my perspective, while I might not be massively keen on Kagi providing my email, I would be very interested to see what Kagi could do to email clients. A useful modern email client is still a bit of a unicorn. The thought of having a privacy-focused client that could include modern features with tight integration with, for example, Kagi Summarize, Translate and Assistant (particularly around calendaring) would be very useful to me. In the ideal world, I would be able to choose whether or not to use Kagi email withing the Kagi mail client. And it would also be amazing to have a desktop and a webmail client.

tux0r

eganonoa The thought of having a privacy-focused client that could include modern features with tight integration with, for example, Kagi Summarize, Translate and Assistant (particularly around calendaring) would be very useful to me.

How can you ensure that Kagi Summarize works with your emails without the content of your email being uploaded to strangers' computers (i.e. Kagi's)?

Pleonasm

eganonoa ...you actually need only look at Proton to understand why it might be needed if you were at Kagi: Proton keeps expanding into new areas. It might be, just to remain competitive in the paid privacy space, they need to have an email offering.

Good points, and I do agree that it is wise for a business to build a product portfolio for diversification and for capturing a larger "share-of-wallet" of each customer to grow revenue. Yet, each product in that portfolio must fulfill a customer need in order for it to succeed.

Proton Mail, when it was launched about a decade ago, fulfilled customers' previously unmet need for email privacy, and became a recognized leader in that realm. It is unclear (to me) what unmet customer need Kagi Mail might correspondingly fulfill, given the plethora of existing email clients and services today with rich feature sets.

eganonoa

tux0r I'm not sure zero access is the one-and-only way to have private mail. It may be the very maximal option, but there are plenty of other mail services that satisfy people from a privacy perspective that do not guarantee server-side zero access.

If that's what you need, there are services out there like Tuta and Proton. But they do come with significant downsides, not least of which is around email discoverability (something that I would hope Kagi, with its extensive experience in search can help with) as well as the other types of integration I mention, limiting efficiency.

Moreover, even Proton has some limited AI features in its zero access mail in its writing assistant Scribe. With Scribe you can choose between server-side or having it run on the device. So even if Kagi wants to offer a zero-access system, there are ways to make it work, though I doubt that a Proton clone is on the cards, frankly.

InternetChunk

I'd prefer for Kagi to be more secure and private than less, nothing's wrong with "overdoing" when it comes to privacy enhancements.
Regarding any AI tools and such I would expect them to be customizable e.g.: options to run AI either on a server or your own side; option to turn off all AI features or any assistants in mail or specific parts of them.

I also expect absolutely zero mail reading of any sorts by (in this instance) Kagi.

eganonoa

Pleonasm Its the rich feature set that I think Kagi has an ability to help with. A more private Superhuman, or a more feature filled Thunderbird. A better Mailspring. Or some combination of all that linked to a subscription service I already pay for. These are things that are very valuable.

I say this as a business and personal user of Proton for eight years. The tradeoff between the highest-levels of privacy available and productivity are real. In some circumstances (such as mine used to be) the legal and practical requirements for the highest level of privacy are strictly necessary, so you accept the productivity hit. But that isn't really the case for all users everywhere and there's space between strict privacy/limited productivity and no privacy/high productivity for Kagi to enter.

Another example to look at is what Element One does with matrix and IM bridging. It allows you to merge in one place all your messaging apps, including Signal, WhatsApp, Telegram and Matrix, with a decent degree of privacy, though recognizing that the bridge acts like a man in the middle, weakening the end-to-end encryption. Is that ideal privacy? No. But it sure helps with productivity in a major way to have all chats in one place!

As I say, my primary request in that regard is for Kagi mail to be more about the client (web and/or desktop) than the mail server itself. Apply what Kagi does in search and AI (inc translate, summarize and assistant) into a webmail or desktop client into which I can bring whatever email I want (save Proton or Tuta which are more locked down) and I'd be a happy bunny!

« Previous Page Next Page »