CO2 vs AI

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gladiator2339

How about we stop using the Internet all together? All the points you make applies exactly the same to the Internet as a whole. You can stop using Kagi yourself.

teiem

Hey @[deleted],

We do care about the environment and it is great that you do too 🙂
You are right that most chat models use (a lot) more than a traditional search would.
If you want to use AI or not in my opinion should be a personal choice and no matter how you decide we want to give you the best tools either way to find the information you are looking for.

If you feel we do not give you this choice somewhere please let us know.

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OldMan973471

TLDR below.

How interesting - years ago when I was looking for a Chrome alternative I chose Brave but Vivaldi was a very close second. We've had our EV 2 years now. And we completely power our office with 2.2 kW LFP batteries from 4pm-9am, I get what you're saying about LLM power usage.

To train these models takes so much power that I read the companies of the next generation of LLMs are looking for dedicated power plants - there just isn't enough power. The amount of power spent on bitcoin is mind boggling as well (another topic). https://www.nnlabs.org/power-requirements-of-large-language-models/ - This article really sheds light on the cost of power used to train these things. And it's only going to exponentially increase. Almost everyone I know these days is using AI to assist with their work, research, and learn.

Sadly, I am guilty of using AI more than I thought I would as I find it useful at gathering information, being a sounding board, and helping me save time not having to drudge through pages to find information. Yes, it gets stuff wrong, and yes it is not perfect - but I do find it useful.

I think our Governments should be encouraged to invest into renewable and more clean forms of power (nuclear) because AI is going to be pushed further and further - and if we don't do it, some other nation will and use that AI for possibly nefarious reasons.

California - for example: http://www.caiso.com/TodaysOutlook/Pages/supply.html - massive amount of our power during the day comes from renewables and we store gigawatts to batteries for 4-5 hours after the sun goes down. But we pay for it - with some of the highest electric rates in the nation.

TLDR: Yes, AI uses a ton of power. I like Kagi's implementation of AI because it puts privacy first and doesn't sell my data (so if I use AI, I'd prefer to use it via Kagi's interface). Governments need to invest in renewable/cleaner power instead of asking everyone to use less (imo).

maurs

This discussion reminds me of people that cry to the heavens for plastic usage to cease.

AI is part of a system that needs to be appreciated holistically. The CO2 generated by AI may very well be offset by the value it provides.

It might be interesting to compare AI to the post office, or department of defense. If you look at the USPS as a singular entity, you might come to the conclusion that it's a giant money pit. One might also zoom out a bit, analyze the value that it provides to the economy and a vast matrix of dependent capabilities, and decide that it's worth keeping around.

My point is that the issue is vastly more complex than AI == CO2 == bad.

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maurs

Let's use plastics as a thought experiment.

Say we mandated a return to cardboard and glass rather than plastic for general goods packaging. I am not a materials or logistics expert, but I think it's safe to state that the strength to mass/volume properties of plastic are very good compared to predecessors.

I suspect that a shift back to cardboard and glass would lower the packing density and raise the overall unit weight of shipped goods, resulting in more shipments overall. is it a 10% difference? 20%? I have no idea, but this begs the question: is an xx% increase of shipment traffic, and all of the related impacts to the environment (diesel exhaust, brake dust, spillage, road wear and tear, rare earth mineral mining for CATs, ship related ocean pollution, etc.) better or worse than the environmental impact of plastic goods packaging?

I have no idea what the result of this calculus would be, but I'm comfortable stating: "the issue is way more complex than plastic = bad". We haven't even touched on the economic impacts of goods costing 10%-20% more. Someone should do a study (i suspect that many have been done over the years)

The question as to whether or not AI is a solution is a bit ridiculous in my opinion. I don't think that the internet had a clear purpose when it was created. If it did have a clear purpose, I don't expect that it's provided value vs how much coal it burned in the early days was very high.

How many grams of CO2 were exhausted by ML models working to gain insight into protein folding or genome mapping before we started realizing value? Is it relevant? Can the value be understood without the benefit of hindsight?

tl;dr: it's complicated and interconnected. a plastic reduction mandate may very well just shift pollution type and venue.

What's the right answer? I have no clue. What I can say is that I hope that some people (or AI) smarter than me considers these and many other factors while working for a solution.

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maurs

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I disagree with your summation @[deleted]. I would say that what it "comes down to" is that I'm not qualified to speak to the whole-planet impact of AI. I would hazard a guess that you and the handful of people in this thread are also grossly under-qualified to make such an analysis, much less engage in outspoken opposition of AI.

On a personal note: I also care deeply about the environment. I appreciate your passion very much, but feel that it's misdirected. You may not feel that you've discovered a personal AI use case that offsets it's negative consequences, but that does not mean that a whole planet full of people have been (or will be) unsuccessful in the same endeavor. Whatever the case is, I think that a vigorous attempt to stuff the genie back into the bottle is a bit futile at this point.