Enable anonymous registration (no email)

TyroneHelmsman

ajimix I am using an email alias for Kagi at the moment. As I mentioned before, using an alias, trash mail, or whatever does never provide the same amount of anonymity as a generated ID or username. Using an email, alias or trash mail can be tracked down to a provider who may even keeps logs or can be forced to do so, like happened before to Proton [1] or Tuta [2].

ak42

TyroneHelmsman

you still could set an invalid tld, but yeah, I get it, that's just a workaround.

ak42

I guess passkeys support would be what you are describing ?

TyroneHelmsman

ak42 Passkey is just a method of user authentication aiming primarily to replace a classic password (though it can also replace a username). But Passkey is not a method of user registration.

I request to enable a registration without email. I already named two good examples of providers using generated user IDs, Mullvad [1] and IVPN [2]. This type of registration would be my favorite method. IVPN users can enter their email and password after registration and then select their favorite way of sign-in authentication. This might be the best way to go for Kagi.

Alternatively, a registration with (random) username would also be sufficient. Good examples of implementing usernames in the registration, are AzireVPN [3] or Safing [4]. Cryptee [5] lets you choose between username and email during registration. And Standard Notes [6] (recently acquired by Proton) provides an optional username input which then turns the email field into a unique hash. There are obviously different approaches to implement usernames for registration purposes. But using an username is still more anonymous compared to an email, especially if the username can be randomized by default.

Kagibeh

TyroneHelmsman If you enter TyroneHelmsman@kagi.com I think you'd be reasonably safe (unless of course Tyrone Helmsman is your real name).

TyroneHelmsman

Kagibeh Negative. Doing this, there is zero benefit compared to using an email aliasing service in terms of anonymity and security.

E.g., if each user account is assigned with a generated ID (like 123A 456B 789C 012D) instead of an email in first place, there is no link to a person and also no way to gain access to that account other than guessing the account ID. The chances to do so is (36¹⁶)/(number of accounts) assuming that a 16 digit alphanumeric ID is used. This is around 1:400 Quintillion (assuming that Kagi has at the moment _20k users). Any user could then optionally enter his email / password / 2fa if he wants further authentication during signing in or in case he uses auto-renewal.

Kagibeh

TyroneHelmsman You were afraid of someone gaining access to your account by controlling the fake address, and I responded to that. I was half joking, but if you suspect that the guys controlling kagi.com might want to compromise your account, then the registration email should be the least of your worries.

TyroneHelmsman

Kagibeh I don’t expect anyone to control kagi.com but Kagi. I just repeated that something like a username or generated ID is always superior to any type of email for registration in terms of anonymity.

There is a reason why most privacy focused tools/providers are already offering an anonymous registration (like the ones I mentioned before). I personally think if Kagi really wants to prove its claims for users privacy it should jump on the bandwagon. That’s just a feature I suggest, of course it’s with the developers to decide if this is actually happening or not.

JamesT

Respectfully, I think you’re confusing privacy with anonymity. Privacy allows me to search for stuff, well privately. To put this another way; what I search for online is no one’s business but my own.

Anonymity, which I think you’re looking for, is the means to totally disconnect you, as an individual, with an online account. Kagi has never said that it’s an anonymous search engine, only that it’s a privacy focused search engine. There’s quite a big difference between these two things.

TyroneHelmsman

JamesT I get what you mean and I am aware of the difference between anonymity and privacy. Maybe I was not clear in my wording though. Sorry for that.

You are right, that Kagi mainly advertises itself as privacy-focused search engine. But Kagi also claims to allow anonymous searches [1] [2]. This claim is not necessary true at the moment. Of course one can argue that a search engine which doesn't require any registration (e.g., DuckDuckGo, Brave Search, Startpage, etc.) will always be superior to something like Kagi in terms of anonymity. Though this will never be an option for Kagi as it is a paid service (and that's what I like about Kagi). Therefore an anonymous registration without the requirement for any personal data would be the best option to ensure user's anonymity while limiting access to subscribers.

Vlad

TyroneHelmsman

I think that random email and no email are very similar from the standpoint of anonymity and when you combine that with anonymous payment method (bitcoin) that grants you very high level of anonymity, which is what our documentation references.

To achieve a higher level of anonymity with search, I think you may be looking for something along the line of blind tokens:

https://kagifeedback.org/d/653-completely-anonymous-searches-unlinked-to-the-account-blind-tokens/

TyroneHelmsman

Vlad Of course using a fake email + BTC payment achieves a better anonymity compared to something like a legit email + credit card payment. But still it can not compete to something like a generated ID + XMR payment.

Kagi is by default holding personal data in form of user email addresses and payment information, assuming that the majority of customers are not using fake emails and BTC payment. And if I‘m not completely wrong the creation of a blind token would also require a Kagi account with compulsory subscription (please correct me if I‘m wrong). Hence, claiming Kagi would provide users an anonymous search experience is just incorrect (even though I do believe that Kagi is not keeping logs).

So if Kagi would store users for example by a random generated ID instead of an email address in first place, no direct link to anyone would exist. If a user would like to link his account to his email, he can do so in the settings. Of course linking your account to your email address has some benefits, e.g., account recovery.

TyroneHelmsman

Vlad

To achieve a higher level of anonymity with search, I think you may be looking for something along the line of blind tokens:

https://kagifeedback.org/d/653-completely-anonymous-searches-unlinked-to-the-account-blind-tokens/

So, if such a token could be generated without requiring an actual account, this would be an interesting option imo.

xkc7

TyroneHelmsman I approve that a registration method similar to Mullvad's for Kagi would be great, but I am not certain whether the target audience of Kagi is interested in anonymity. For this purpose, a service like Startpage would be a better option as it doesn't require registration at all. I believe that implementing your suggestion would require significant resources. Additionally, any service that provides automatic renewal should restrict access using some form of user authentication. I acknowledge that using a fake email is not ideal, but for now, it seems to be the best option. Nevertheless, I would appreciate seeing some kind of anonymous registration in the future.

Vlad

xkc7 I tend to agree with you. Fake email + crypto provides high level of anonymity for those who want it. But most people simple do not and just want their privacy respected.

@TyroneHelmsman I fail to see a difference between random email and random id? Problem with the way Mullvad does this is if you made it default sign up option, then if you lost access to your account you would not have a way to restore it - which means money you used to pay for subscriptions (sometimes hundreds of dollars if you paid for annual plan) would be trapped. So it is a choice to balance the needs of an average Kagi consumer, while making other options for those who want more.

We want to build a search engine first, and careful to allocate resources to things that are not search related. like building various payment methods as this is not easy. It took us 4 months to implement Open Node. Sales tax integration is taking us 6 months. Everything with payments is tricky. Mullvad launched in 2009 and we did in 2022 so they have a 13 year headstart. Give us same amount of time and we will surpass them in options.

TyroneHelmsman

Vlad If you use any email address that you control, it will always be linked to your identity, even if you use an alias service. If you register with a fake email, you will not have access to it, and someone else may take over your account (in theory if he controls that fake email address).

It's worth noting that the risk of losing access to an account already exists for anyone using a fake email. It's a personal decision to weigh the pros and cons of this method and out of Kagi's responsibility. As I suggested earlier, it might be better for Kagi to adopt a registration method like IVPN, which provides a user ID and optional email and password authentication (with benefits such as 2fa and account recovery). Also, just the possibility of selecting a username during registration instead of an email would be a benefit. If you collect less of users' personal data on your servers, you automatically become more privacy-friendly.

And please don't get me wrong: I know that resources are limited, and Kagi is young on the market. I don't expect any of the suggested features to be implemented within the following months. I happily use and will continue using Kagi without this feature. I know that the current registration method causes some concerns in the privacy community. I think an anonymous registration would reduce these concerns and would, in general, be beneficial to your service. Especially since you claim to offer anonymous searches in various places.

Vlad

TyroneHelmsman

If you register with a fake email, you will not have access to it, and someone else may take over your account (in theory if he controls that fake email address).

This is possible only if they know what address you used for it. Which is same as them knowing your mullvad credentials. Not sure why is one of them the risk and the other not (as your fake email can be a 32 character random string). And then even if they knew which email address you used, they would still need to access it meaning literally owning access to the domain you used (which may be an unregistreable domain like "1.2". So yes I agree theoretical risk exists (same as with mullvad) but do not see it being practical risk for someone who is careful with this (same as mullvad).

xkc7

Vlad I think what @TyroneHelmsman tries to express is that using a Mullvad like ID code or username for registration will in general reduce the amount of personal data required for registration and stored on your servers. And I generally agree with that position. If you stop asking new users for their email you don't need to store it either.

The thing with Mullvad is that unlike Kagi it is completely build for privacy enthusiast users who are usually quite tech-savvy. For a regular user, it is much more comfortable using an email for registration, as he doesn't need to remember different credentials for each website. So as much as I like the idea of having something like Mullvad's ID code for Kagi, I really don't think its practicable.

Something like IVPN would in general be ideal for Kagi, but still you would have to adjust it. Users should be clarified about the risks of not submitting an email during registration. And again, implementing this would require a lot of resources. Therefore, I think username registration should be provided by default and implementing this reasonable. Best case would be to offer a button to generate a username during registration like @TyroneHelmsman mentioned.

TyroneHelmsman

I suggest for the moment we just wait and see how the demand is. I think I have said everything to explain my suggestion. If someone has another idea for an anonymous registration, please feel free to add it.