Provide a plan without AI functionality

kagihater

Hello,
I was curious if anything had changed with Kagi, saw this thread and made an account just to share my thoughts.

I used Kagi during its beta and paid for many months. But I stopped when I had issues, like getting no results after blocking low-quality domains, and no reply to my emails from support.

Last year I tried again, but I didn’t like how "AI" features were pushed everywhere, along with extra tools like Assistant, Summarizer, Email and so on.

Today I checked again and it seems only worse.
I just want a decent search engine. I want to rate domains, block SEO spam, filter results my way.
I don’t want "AI", or even algorithms. I’m happy to go through dozens of pages to find what I need.

I’m happy to pay for a good product. I pay for my email service, and I paid for Kagi.
But I can’t keep paying when I see how they’re ignoring these issues.
I know Kagi was meant to be an "AI" company from the start, but still…

For those who don’t get our concerns: you’re overlooking all the problems tied to "AI" on so many levels. Not everyone can ignore them.
Not when Kagi is supposed to be better than the big tech...

Anonymous12

kagihater I don’t want "AI", or even algorithms. I’m happy to go through dozens of pages to find what I need.

https://noai.duckduckgo.com

Enjoy

Kagih

Anonymous12 Did I ask for recommendations? Do you think I don't know about DDG?
I've noticed that your replies in this thread are very condescending.

Pleonasm And I just don't pay for Kagi...

Pleonasm

Personally, there is not a single software application I use that does not contain at least a few features that I do not want or need. In some cases, I also oppose specific features based on my own principles (e.g., the privacy implications of using that feature). And, there is no “kill switch” to hide such application features.

From a practical perspective, I simply have to accept the fact any application will never be designed precisely as I would ideally prefer and have to consent to a compromise, enjoying the subset of features that align with my wants/needs and ignoring the remainder. The situation with Kagi is no different?

purox

"GenAI"/Slop has many know problems (ethical, environmental, political, etc...). By getting kagi, one pays for slopmachines (as they are included in every tier) and moves money to billionaires that rape children, destroy the environment and society. I don't want to give money to those people, but would like to use kagi. Therefore I would like a pricing tier without "AI".
As a person opposed to child rape I will not spend money on kagi search, if that means that (some of) my money goes to child rapists. I assume many people think like me and would like an "AI"-free tier. This could either be cheaper than the tiers that include "AI"-features or give more searches for the For The argument if you don't use it, your money is not going to the rapists, is wrong, as people that don't use "AI" are cross-financing the ones that do, as the price is the same whether or not one uses "AI".

Kaguy

I don't really have any hope Kagi will do away with the AI functionality no matter how many people ask. They're into it, they believe in it, they just want to work with it, and I'm told they started as an AI company anyway (which would've been very nice to know before subscribing, I'm here because of Cory Doctorow, btw. Wonder what he'd think of all those AI features).

Given Kagi search still works consistently better than Google in any case, I'm begrudingly accepting my money will go to the development of a technology I don't agree with being implemented for functions I know for a fact are not a good idea. (again, and I can't stress this enough, the very concept of Kagi News is irresponsable slop at best, dangerous misinformation generation at worst). The only thing I ask for in order to trust the company won't eventually do the things I'm here specifically to avoid is a kill switch. Seriously, it can't be that hard. There's no ethical conumdrum here, the people that supposedly enjoy only one or two LLM features can just, as we keep being told time and again, not use it.

If the anti-AI should just ignore the features because they're opt-in, I see no reason why this hypothetical pro-AI crowd couldn't do the same with a setting. Unless, of course, we're all willing to admit the existence of features that annoy us is by itself enough of a problem so that being told to just ignore it is not a satisfying solution?

Pleonasm

@purox, I do agree that "GenAI"/Slop has many know problems." And, it is true that "By getting kagi, one pays for slopmachines." And, it is also true that "The argument if you don't use it, your money is not going to the rapists, is wrong, as people that don't use 'AI' are cross-financing the ones that do."

However, having a Kagi pricing tier without AI does not solve these issues. As discussed previously, paying a subscription for a plan without AI functionality does not mean that the person's subscription fees do not contribute to the fixed costs associated with AI tools that are incurred by Kagi. This confusion is referred to as the "mental accounting" fallacy, as discussed in the realm of behavioral economics. Money is fungible.

Vlad

Closing this discussion as it is getting personal attack oriented vs constructive and as such is not useful to anyone.

Someone using only Search is already paying only for Search. All our Assistant features are optional and as such we do not see a need for a new pricing plan. In the future we may better seperate products vs bundles - we are just gettting started with the Kagi ecosystem.

We will continue to create products to the best of abilities, striving for them to be the best in the market - whether that is Search, Browser, Email or Assistant. We will continue doing that with having our users being the only customers, without 3rd parties, intermediaries and advertisers like so many companies out there. This is already incredibly hard to do and we do not need to make things harder for us than they already are. Our product roadmap and updates are transparent and we welcome everyone to participate in constructive product related discussions.

KagiAlmostLover

I started a 3mo trial for Kagi based on the Fastmail promo. I’m loving it. It’s absolutely fantastic. Reminds me of Google circa 2015. However, I will never ever pay for a service pushing LLMs on me. I do not fault others for using LLMs, but personally I find they rot my brain and I wish to avoid them full stop. I suspect this is a very common view (and one that is becoming more common every day).

This is not meant to disparage other’s LLM use. If you use them good for you, it doesn’t concern me nor does it affect my own actions.

There was a similar thread for this that was closed for some reason, but I’d love if there was a version of Kagi that literally doesn’t have access to the LLM features. Yes I know you can turn them off. Yes I know that Kagi estimates searches cost them more than LLM queries (I find this borderline impossible to believe given every study on LLM costs ever, but it’s irrelevant regardless). This isn’t about this, it’s about user wants and needs. I as a user do not want to pay for a service with an LLM. So that’s my feature request and I hope you all will allow voting on it and not close the thread like the other one.

Thank you and thank you for an excellent search engine!

It would just be a no-AI plan. DuckDuckGo did a poll showing that something like 95% of their users wanted this, so it’s obviously a popular view. And most popular blogs about Kagi say something to the effect of “it rocks but I wish it didn’t have the AI stuff” so obviously others are thinking this too.

Luis

Please note: this thread has been reopened. We welcome constructive discussion. Personal attacks will be removed.

We locked this thread previously because the tone deteriorated. We're reopening it now for two reasons: (1) we're close to delivering changes that directly affect this topic, and (2) we'd rather keep the conversation in one place than see it scattered across threads. Here's an update:

1/ Clearer product/subscription seperation

As Vlad mentioned, we have plans to better seperate individual subscriptions from our product bundles. To be more concrete, we're working towards releasing Kagi Assistant with its own subscription and trial plans. When that happens, Kagi Search subscribers will have access to the Kagi Assistant trial plan, same trial available to any new sign up, and if they wish to continue using the Kagi Assistant past trial, they will need to upgrade to a bundle subscription.

2/ Your search subscription isn't subsidising AI

We've addressed this subject on another thread: https://kagifeedback.org/d/9482-give-option-to-disable-ai-features-donate-money-for-foss-instead/13
The gist is: users with high search volumes who don't use AI have a higher cost to serve than users with moderate search volumes and heavy AI usage. In other words, AI usage tends to offset search costs (people tend to search less) rather than add to them. That's why we felt confident there wouldn't be a negative economic impact from opening up the Assistant to search subscribers.

So in essence, on aggregate AI has a positive effect on Search subscription profitiability.

3/ Removing AI-based features from the product interface

We're exploring options ranging from the unified toggle to more granular per-feature controls, and expect to share more on this in the upcoming months.

Separately, ethical concerns are valid, and as it's been previously pointed out, (a) Kagi has no investors or third parties dictating product direction, (b) we're diligent in our evaluation of inference providers, and (c) our goal is to make every feature earn its place, we're not shipping AI features for its sake.

k7absp2h

Luis

The gist is: users with high search volumes who don't use AI have a higher cost to serve than users with moderate search volumes and heavy AI usage. In other words, AI usage tends to offset search costs (people tend to search less) rather than add to them. That's why we felt confident there wouldn't be a negative economic impact from opening up the Assistant to search subscribers.

I didn't quite understand that, could you explain it a bit?

dreifach

Luis Will the search/assistant bundle be incorporated into current Ultimate plans?

Peter

Luis Does that mean Kagi Assistant will be removed from the Professional plan?

RoxyRoxyRoxy

k7absp2h Searches are, unexpectedly, more expensive for us to serve than AI. A user that does only traditional searches (not using Assistant) will cost more on our end than someone using AI + search.

Luis

k7absp2h referencing the comment I linked,

(...) Our hypothesis is that AI features like Quick Answer or access to Kagi Assistant have utility and reduce the number of searches users perform, and that this reduction more than compensates for the token cost.
(...)
In other words, users get more value from their Kagi subscription, trhough AI grounded in Kagi search, and we're able to offer that extra functionality without increasing costs.

dreifach yes, the current plan is that Ultimate is our bundle plan

Luis

Peter no. It means Kagi Assistant will have a trial plan, similar to how Kagi Search has a Trial offering, that anyone with a Kagi account (for example a Search Pro subscriber) can use.

We're confident in the direction, but there's still a fair amount of work happening on the Assistant before we release its standalone subscription, so it's too early to get into the details.

« Previous Page