Have country/region value in control center stick in new sessions (unaffected by the language switch when searching)

Sswap · Sep 15, 2022

I had not noticed that third language selector. That one inspires me to be a global option as well.

I admit that the (now) two global option switches may suggest different things because of where they are located. Still, the better UX approach to me is that, the moment I change an option, something must change in the system's behavior. It should change the current search session to France, yes.

But, if in the same session, a moment later, I change the one in the main panel to Germany, the one on the right stays with France.

This assuming that the selector on the right needs to stay where it is right now.

Vlad · Sep 15, 2022

swap

Huh...

The one in control center is a global setting. You say that you expect it to influence your current filter setting and this complicates the workflow propsoed here (where global and "filter" region are two different things).

Also can you address the expectation when going back to home page in the same search session?

Sswap · Sep 15, 2022

Vlad The one in control center is a global setting. You say that you expect it to influence your current filter setting and this complicates the workflow propsoed here (where global and "filter" region are two different things).

I’m confused now. I think that one of the two “global” ones should go. Three settings are too much. Which one, not sure.

Vlad Also can you address the expectation when going back to home page in the same search session?

I tried, in the second reply of my previous post. If I make a change, the change should be reflected somewhere including the current window. But, I also think that this is a minor issue, and it also depends on which global switch stays.

Vlad · Sep 15, 2022

swap Assuming we remove the region setting in the control center, would you expect that going back to home page your region setting is reset to global ?

Sswap · Sep 15, 2022

Vlad

I will call one local, the other global.

I will pretend that the one under "All Settings" does not exist (that one would global, too).

Current situation:
local: France
global: France

I change local to Germany.
local: Germany
global: France

I do my searches, and then I close the window. I open a new window.
local: France
global: France

I change global to Italy. I stay in the current window (click on the logo, whatever).
local: Italy
global: Italy

I do my searches, and then I close the window. I open a new window. This is the situation:
local: Italy
global: Italy

(nothing has changed). I change local to Austria. I stay in the current window
local: Austria
global: Italy

I change global to International. I stay in the current window.
local : International
global: International

I change local to Algeria. I stay in the current window.
local : Algeria
global : International

I close the window. Two hours later, I open kagi again.
local : International
global: International

@z64 would this make sense to you?

@Vlad please note that the new region bangs here would behave exactly like local.

z64 · Sep 15, 2022

swap Yes, I think that more or less sounds in-line with how filters work normally, except that you propose that the sync should be "one-way" from global -> local, instead of both directions as it is now. Let me know if I got that right.

While I find any syncronization between the two unecessary, I would be fine with this - it is only the local -> global sync that I want gone

Sswap · Sep 15, 2022

z64 except that you propose that the sync should be "one-way" from global -> local, instead of both directions as it is now. Let me know if I got that right.

You got it right. I did not originally propose that one-way sync. @Vlad asked about it, and it made sense to me in a “sure, why not” way. Otherwise, my original request was the same as yours :-)

Vlad · Sep 15, 2022

swap What do you expect to happen with your local region setting when you go from search results to home page (kagi.com) (not close the browser tab, just go back to landing page in the same search session)?

Do you prefer the change in global region setting to reflect on the current local setting or not?

Sswap · Sep 15, 2022

Vlad

I will reduce everything to two cases, but you have two options:

Option A
Changing local never changes global.
Changing global changes local in the next session (browser refresh, new window, etc.)

Option B
Changing local never changes global.
Changing global changes local immediately.

With both options, region bangs = local.
With both options, a change to local has the scope of a session.

Option A was my original request and the one @z64 is referring to.
Option B is what came out after your various inputs. Option B may work, and I offered my vision for it, but I do not find it a must-have. Especially if implementing it makes things complicated.

Vlad What do you expect to happen with your local region setting when you go from search results to home page (kagi.com) (not close the browser tab, just go back to landing page in the same search session)?

A change to local has session scope. If go back to the homepage and search again, its value stays the same. Even if I have just changed it (no matter if with Option A or with Option B). It would be equivalent to deleting the input text from the search results.

Vlad · Sep 15, 2022

swap Thank you for your patience and appriciating the complexity of various UX paths that needed to be explored. After exhausting all areas of interest here is what we are proposing:

Remove the region setting from the control center

This is the one that was the major UX hurdle that we had to work around, resulting in the current implementation. We did not realize that we could simply remove it without losing any function, simplifying things a lot. Thanks for opening our eyes!

Change in global settings would reflect to current local setting

This is because visiting settings should/would count as 'session reset'. Just by visiting settings without any change, session would still 'reset' its filter options.

Going back to home page would reset the settings

This is because it would also count as 'session reset' and this is for consistency (that is how other filters work).

The last two are still somewhat up for grabs. We can have visiting settings and home page as session resets or not.
By reset I mean reseting region, lens selection and any filters to their defaults.

Basically we should agree what a search session is:

a) Streak of consecutive searches inside SERP pages (including web/images/videos/news/maps)
b) Session defined by a browser tab - end to end experience from starting a search to closing the tab. In this case, visiting home page or general settings would not reset settings.

Which feels more natural to you?

seventhwave · Sep 16, 2022

Vlad I'm late at the party but I've read the thread now.
I've the same feelings as @swap and @z64 (switching between Italy and International is disturbing for all my searches).
About search sessions I'm for:

a) Streak of consecutive searches inside SERP pages (including web/images/videos/news/maps)

This is because when a user voluntarily change the "local" region setting, is doing that before/after doing a specific search (or a search and successive refinements). If it's a change "local to the search", I want it to expire after the search, not after my tab.
I also think that the reset pattern occurring when visiting general preferences or home page is correct: this value has to be treated as temporary, exactly with the same lifespan as "time" selection.
I'm late on this too, but I also agree to control center region setting removal: was always misleading, and I used this setting instead of the setting in preferences somewhat randomly.

Sswap · Sep 16, 2022

Vlad hank you for your patience and appriciating the complexity of various UX paths that needed to be explored.

All good, thank you so much for listening to your customers.

After exhausting all areas of interest here is what we are proposing:

Remove the region setting from the control center

This is the one that was the major UX hurdle that we had to work around, resulting in the current implementation. We did not realize that we could simply remove it without losing any function, simplifying things a lot. Thanks for opening our eyes!

LGTM!

Change in global settings would reflect to current local setting

This is because visiting settings should/would count as 'session reset'. Just by visiting settings without any change, session would still 'reset' its filter options.

LGTM

Going back to home page would reset the settings

This is because it would also count as 'session reset' and this is for consistency (that is how other filters work).

The last two are still somewhat up for grabs. We can have visiting settings and home page as session resets or not.

Visiting settings -> session reset looks weird to me.
Changing settings -> session reset (with new values) looks good to me (but not a must-have, like stated above).

By reset I mean reseting region, lens selection and any filters to their defaults.

Basically we should agree what a search session is:

a) Streak of consecutive searches inside SERP pages (including web/images/videos/news/maps)
b) Session defined by a browser tab - end to end experience from starting a search to closing the tab. In this case, visiting home page or general settings would not reset settings.

Which feels more natural to you?

I am not sure on a difference between a) and b). Once I am done with my searches, what else am I doing in Kagi? Wouldn't I likely close tab/window with a) when I am done, making a) a special case of b)?

To me, b) feels more natural, mostly because it feels odd to me that visiting settings resets things.

I would need to see how it feels when using it to be certain.

Vlad · Sep 16, 2022

swap Visiting settings/home page and resetting things adds to the notion of these local settings being temporary. That is what @seventhwave agrees with too. So looking for you to change your mind or someone else to chime in for tiebreaker!

Sswap · Sep 16, 2022

Vlad

I won't be stubborn on this.

To me, it's only the settings one that looks weird. Not necessarily wrong.

Maybe a little hint message to explain this to users? Perhaps this shows up only once, or up to when someone dismisses it?

Maybe I just try it and I see nothing weird about it. Go for it!

CCWagner · Sep 16, 2022

So, I'll describe what I'd like:

Nothing besides changing the setting in settings changes my global region setting. No bang, no switch outside the settings page.
Using a bang or changing the non-setting selector, changes it while I stay on kagi.com. so using !reg or !de all searches while I'm using the sites search field, stay in Germany, but once I navigate away, or use the browser searchbar, it defaults to my settings again. (Implementation like a hidden field, or query string)

I guess 2 could be done via "session", but for me that would be worse (though slightly better than now), and I think its harder to grok.

LKD70 · Sep 16, 2022

Here's what I'd expect it to behave like, though I know it isn't currently the case

The control centers setting should be named and work as the "default" setting. Such as 'default search region'.

The filter when searching should always be the default unless changed for a specific search.

Say I search "pizza" and my default is UK, I'll get UK in the filter, I could then quick ly toggle the filter to Italy which will change the results to Italian results for this search/session only. After which the filter will return to what is the default set in the control center.

Vlad · Sep 16, 2022

Amazingly everybody gave a different view of what the feature should work like.

Unless there is strong opposition we will implement it in the way it was originally proposed

https://kagifeedback.org/d/928-have-countryregion-value-in-control-center-stick-in-new-sessions-unaffected-by-the-language-switch-when-searching/24

Wwhee · Sep 17, 2022

Vlad I like this proposal, but will merely visiting settings reset the region? The settings screen feels more like an overlay. I wouldn't expect it to actually change anything if I open it and then close it without touching anything else.

Vlad · Sep 17, 2022

whee Not visiting control center, but "All Settings" page.

Wwhee · Sep 17, 2022

Vlad Right, that's the one. It mentally feels like a window over the search page. If I open a window and then just click the "X" to close, a state change would be surprising. Right now it seems to retain my previous search and filters and that matches what I'm expecting to happen.