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marc_vb * I'm curious what Vivaldi says about their translation system because that does use AI. because of course it does. Any modern translation including Gtranslate and deepl use machine learning or transformer networks to some degree.

What Vivaldi mainly means in the blog post is that they don't use LLM's. Which is fair.

But I personally haven't looked into lingvanex that much, but it seems like might be using similar components to LLM's:
https://lingvanex.com/en/blog/what-are-large-language-models/

Lingvanex uses the OpenNMT-tf framework for its translation models, which are based on the classic Transformer architecture (encoder + decoder). This approach ensures high-quality translations and optimises the training of language models.

Meanwhile libretranslate uses machine learning but not LLM's as far as i understand: https://libretranslate.com/

      Thibaultmol because that does use AI

      In these days, for commercial / investor pleasing reasons, everything is called AI. Local ML is called AI. Algorithms are called AI. If-then-else is called AI. Etc.

      I don't know for sure if Vivaldi is using Lingvanex's AI capabilities; maybe that's just an option. Knowing Vivaldi a bit, I don't think they have a heavy server infrastructure for it.

      https://lingvanex.com/en/blog/cases/business-case-20/

      Bottom line: As long as "AI" isn't using LLM's and/or is using a lot of resources, then I'm fine with "AI".

          It's not good business sense to associate your company and brand with low quality products, especially if you are funded by user subscriptions. It's also a bad experience for the users, who have no way of knowing what quality to expect. So I don't like this idea. If you are that adamant about saving a tiny sliver of electricity, I think an old fashioned paper dictionary could be the best option.

            carl I don't appreciate that last sentence. You could have commented without that....

            People understand that eco is normally worse than the normal thing. I'm just giving ideas

            Also: kagi translate is free. You don't need an account. I don't agree with your first argument

                marc_vb One single persons use is a tiny sliver. Utility computing (such as translating) is extremely effective in comparison with other normal household uses of electricity by an individual.

                Thibaultmol

                Sorry for the tone, but I really think that what you're suggesting is akin to straining gnats and swallowing camels. And I think that Kagi should avoid connecting their brand with low quality offerings. Even in a free product, which can be a gateway for paying customers.

                      carl Utility computing (such as translating) is extremely effective

                      Computing can be done with low energy consumption; sure. But AI, especially with LLM's, involves heavy use of resources like water and electricity. Simple facts, documented by OpenAI, Microsoft and Google, to name a few.

                          nichu42 it wouldn't I suppose, but that's assuming that people find their way to those sites.
                          Plus once Kagi translate is in the extension and such, it'd be nice to have an eco toggle. while libretranslate would need some other extension, if these demo instances even have api access allowed to begin with

                            marc_vb All computing is low energy usage, compared to what we'd have to do without computers. It's not as easy as measure as heating or transport, but information technology has immense utility. Especially translation.

                                carl The Jevons paradox teaches us that sometimes "when technological progress increases the efficiency with which a resource is used", total "resource use is increased, rather than reduced" due to increases in demand. Casual translation seems to fit the bill.

                                Firefox Translation does a great job for basic, on-the-go translation needs for the few languages it handles for instance, and is entirely local. 3 MB covers 10–17 languages.

                                    carl All computing is low energy usage

                                    Sigh. You really don't want to understand? You're not aware (or don't want to be) of the huge increase in energy usage due to AI / LLM's?

                                        marc_vb It could also be you who don't want to understand. It's not Kagi's responsibility to stop people from using their product in a wasteful manner. That's the concern and prerogative of the customer. If you want to compare energy usage of LLMs, you have to compare to the energy usage of having a real human translator. I used to hire and pay people for translations. That energy cost is probably 100-1000 times higher than a LLM.

                                        It you're selling a premium product like Kagi, it is bad business strategy to associate your brand with low quality products. @SonephetR2 suggested Firefox Translation, which I think is a great solution for OP.

                                            carl That energy cost is probably 100-1000 times higher than a LLM.

                                            Aaargh, forget it. This is of nu use. If you keep making claims that are factual false, then this discussion is pointless.

                                            You may react to this if you want, but I won't.

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