Having a "Summarize" button is genuinely disappointing

ctoliver94

I'm just going to be honest here (and get backlash from the folks who'd rather tap the Summarize link and read what's on the page rather than click the Website link and read what's on the page) and say, although it's not new, I'm just kinda not happy having a Summarize button on every. single. link.

You have stated yourself that your search engine should be a search engine but I'm pretty tired of seeing Kagi push AI so hard. As far as I can see this can't even be turned off? Which also is kinda pushing against why I subscribed in the first place: the strong customization. I'd have to turn off all AI features which, yes, three times a month, quick answer is useful. This is especially irritating because these AI summaries are well-known to shrink the traffic websites that rely on ad revenue to stay afloat (to be clear: I said to stay afloat, not to milk money like a lot of larger websites) get. And this is a big DOCUMENTED issue with Google that you are essentially replicating and even taking a step further. All of this coming after Small Web feels like it was performative from the start.

Speaking really quickly on the AI toggle, I did in fact read about it in the changelog:

It's finally here! We believe that Kagi's application of AI should always be useful - there when you'd like it, and never when you don't, and always respecting your privacy.

There have been great changes in Search like the Search API, Stop-Slop/AI Images Detection, and more. But I don't feel good supporting Kagi when every single link has a "continue this conversation in the slop machine!" directly under it. For what it's worth Kagi Assistant is high quality and very usable. But I'm paying for a search engine and I don't feel like that's being prioritized enough. None of my family users have or will ever use it aside from me. Yet we basically pay for and subsidize it.

The long story short is that I have gotten quieter over the last year about recommending Kagi. Assistant and Summarize (and possibly email??? I genuinely don't want Google 2 what am I even paying for?????) have just become too huge of a focus to have folks pay for. Orion meanwhile is something I'm glad to not use and still support- more browsers more better in my opinion. And, just through sampling bias, I'm going to get people who'd wear a ChatGPT shirt tell me how "AI is the future get on board or get with it" and all their other copy-pasted cope under this thread likely.

So here I'll say it simply: TLDR, I want a good search engine.

(This field is required. Maybe it should be submit bug, submit feature idea, and submit general feedback?)

laiz

Hey, you can remove the summarize button via this menu:

Pleonasm

ctoliver94 But I'm paying for a search engine and I don't feel like that's being prioritized enough.

“Never a truer word spoken” (IMO).

carl

Pleonasm Then don't pay for a search engine.

Regarding the summarize function, Kagi should first and foremost consider the needs of their users, who are paying them. Not the ad-revenue of websites. We as customers pay for a better search experience, so that has to be the number one priority for Kagi.

ctoliver94

carl Not the ad-revenue of websites.

This is greedy "me-first" logic that I will not only not support but only condemn. If you want to do the whole "fuck you got my bag" lifestyle that's great have fun but I'm simply telling Kagi (not you, I'm not paying you) that I will not champion, support, or even endorse any organization that is willing to tear down others to bring themselves up. Full stop.

Also, Kagi has already shown an interest in the survival of these websites. It's literally a feature they built: Small Web.

laiz Hey, you can remove the summarize button via this menu:

Appreciate this. Will toggle it 👍️ I do want to make sure that readers are aware that, to me, the ability to turn it off isn't the big issue it's the fact that it exists at all that kinda scums me out and feels antithetical to what I signed up for.

Pleonasm

carl We as customers pay for a better search experience, so that has to be the number one priority for Kagi.

Unfortunately, I see no evidence that improving the search experience is a "number one priority for Kagi." In fact, with the exception of minor maintenance fixes and cosmetic adjustments, there has been no meaningful improvement in the Kagi Search product for a long time (AFAIK) despite the growing plethora of documented deficiencies and defects contained in this feedback forum.

ctoliver94

There have been a few a good few but then I look at Asisstant on it's like... 3rd interface design or something like that. But even still like I've said I've been desperate (no joke, desperate) for a way to find products online. I want Kagi Shopping so bad to help crawl all of these storefronts for things I'm looking for. The post for it (https://kagifeedback.org/d/120-kagi-shopping/10) is still going decently strong two years later but I guess it's just... well it's not part of the AI boom so who cares, right?

carl

ctoliver94 Do you personally click the ads?

Webmasters can configure their sites to deny access to AIs like the Kagi summarizer, so I consider it a solved problem.

cmart

ctoliver94 it's the fact that it exists at all that kinda scums me out and feels antithetical to what I signed up for.

@ctoliver94 if this is how you feel, it's legitimate, and I'm not going to convince you otherwise!

But for me, the ability to (without loss of generality) summarize pages from the results view is exactly what I signed up for. I use this feature all the time to avoid visiting sites that are rife with dark patterns (e.g. Medium, Reddit these days). The resulting web experience feels more humane. Summarize page is part of what earns Kagi my $25/month.

It appears that the button just moved (out of the context menu, and now as light-grey text at the end of the page description). That seems fine to me. I hope Kagi doesn't de-emphasize it further, and I really hope they don't remove it entirely!

ctoliver94

carl Do you personally click the ads?

Not often no. That dilutes none of this though. First of all a lot of ad revenue isn't even often based on the clickthrough rate. (Yes this is a comment on Reddit, I don't need to quote a scientific journal here) Clickthrough metrics are important but they are fully outside the scope of this discussion. BUT, since you brought it up, let's mention how I'll gladly and often disable my adblocker on websites that 1) ask 2) are not a site that will cover half my screen with highly intrusive ads. I'm actually doing more by disabling my adblock than I am clicking through to buy the product.

To be clear I don't exactly wish for the Internet to stay reliant on ad revenue but currently it's the only way to make some websites sustainable, like if they're not selling a product or service. Yes, websites that garner large traffic volumes without selling anything do exist still.

carl Webmasters can configure their sites to deny access to AIs like the Kagi summarizer, so I consider it a solved problem.

This 100% does not count as a solved problem. Humans also have the ability to hunt for their own, therefore world hunger is a solved problem! Different scale, same logic.

cmart But for me, the ability to (without loss of generality) summarize pages from the results view is exactly what I signed up for. I use this feature all the time to avoid visiting sites that are rife with dark patterns (e.g. Medium, Reddit these days). The resulting web experience feels more humane. Summarize page is part of what earns Kagi my $25/month.

It appears that the button just moved (out of the context menu, and now as light-grey text at the end of the page description). That seems fine to me. I hope Kagi doesn't de-emphasize it further, and I really hope they don't remove it entirely!

I, also, think folks like you are valid and legitimate and honestly I don't want to push you out of Kagi. If Kagi stops at Assistant, Search (incl Translate because I oddly consider that part of Search nowadays lol), and Orion I'm super fine with that. They make good products but my fear is the continue dilution as well as the fact that I'm paying a lot for a part of the service I genuinely do not interact with often enough. And it's not like AI is cheap to run so our subscription is absolutely subsidizing yours, which, if Assistant is the only thing prioritized, I'm not okay with.

At the end of the day I do want both classes of users to be happy! But I also want a search engine, which is what I'm paying for after all. And one that will curate the experience as a search engine not as a search engine+. Otherwise I'd just crawl back to Google haha

ctoliver94

And, just for the record, my opinion here is largely outside of my opinions of AI itself. My opinion here is about the service I'm paying for, what I'm getting, where it's going, and why.

AI Champions need not defend the technology in this thread. I'm not here for that.

carl

ctoliver94 To be clear I don't exactly wish for the Internet to stay reliant on ad revenue but currently it's the only way to make some websites sustainable, like if they're not selling a product or service.

I would say that the majority of websites are promoting or selling a product or service, and that is also what many or maybe even most people are looking for when using a search engine. Should we be unable to summarize those results because of considerations for the ad-supported websites? And then we have the websites which are just free and without ads, such as Wikipedia and government sites.

ctoliver94

carl I would say that the majority of websites are promoting or selling a product or service, and that is also what many or maybe even most people are looking for when using a search engine. Should we be unable to summarize those results because of considerations for the ad-supported websites? And then we have the websites which are just free and without ads, such as Wikipedia and government sites.

You're trying to debate whether websites should be open game for AI scrapping. I'm not going down this conversational route with you. If you're not talking about this then I just straight up do not care:

ctoliver94 My opinion here is about the service I'm paying for, what I'm getting, where it's going, and why.

carl

ctoliver94 Maybe you consider the feedback forums to be just one-way communication to Kagi, but in that case they shouldn't let other people reply in the threads.

I'd say it's highly relevant that many website owners are indifferent to, or want AIs like Kagi Summarizer to scrape their content. And certainly many people prefer to interact through AI tools than to visit websites directly, including many people paying for Kagi just like you.

What I'm saying is that the Kagi product will be worse for paying customers without the summarize function.

ctoliver94

I think the dialogue directly between me and you is done. It's not going to be productive anymore, so I'm backing out. Thanks for the conversation, it's always good to have both sides on a thread.

To Kagi staff, you currently seem to have two camps of paid users: "I want a paid search engine", and "I want a good AI tool". Both of these users deserve a good product, however, I'm not subsidizing the latter at the expense of a slowed development of the thing I am paying for. I want a healthier Internet and I'm willing to pay you for it. That's why I'm here- that's what you said you'd contribute to. And, as it is right now, I'm losing faith that this is still your objective.

j03

I don't mind the existence of a summarize button, but I'm pretty annoyed it is the default, and that I had to find this thread to turn it off. I would have never thought to hit that three dots menu.

Luis

hey everyone, thank you for sharing your feedback.

Inline summaries have been available in Kagi Search for the past 3 years as Quick Summary, although the feature was hidden in the Quick Actions menu.

While revamping that menu, we decided to place the button where it made the most sense: next to the search result snippet, where the summary appears.
The idea is pretty straightforward: make the feature more visible to gather user feedback and see whether usage increases over time. If it doesn’t, we’ll simply remove the feature from the product rather than "hiding it back" in a menu.

We appreciate your feedback. You can easily hide the button through the 3dot menu.

j03 I would have never thought to hit that three dots menu.

Do you have a suggestion where we could put that option to make it more intuitive?

carl

Luis Since you're already sending your bot to fetch website content for summarization, how about a button also to open websites in a reader view in the sidebar? That way we can inspect websites cleanly without exiting from the search results.

ctoliver94

Luis Do you have a suggestion where we could put that option to make it more intuitive?

The three dots is fine, but a second place to set it in the same place you can disable AI is where I'd imagine it would be.

Luis hey everyone, thank you for sharing your feedback.

Inline summaries have been available in Kagi Search for the past 3 years as Quick Summary, although the feature was hidden in the Quick Actions menu.

I want to reiterate that the change to the summarize button is not the core issue I'm having but rather the, from the outside, huge shifts in priority and slow and steady migration to an AI company. I appreciate you addressing the Summary button itself, still. I want to make sure all the money I'm spending on this a year is going towards what I actually paid for.

I've said this in other threads here but I don't want another Search engine turned ecosystem.